Here is a recent discussion James Tripp and I had via email.
James is a master hypnotist and changework artist. Go check out his work. It will be well worth your time and money.
What do you think?
James Tripp:
OK, I think we are on a similar page (maybe).
I would agree that state shifts are part of hypnosis… that state shifts must happen, otherwise NOTHING has happened! For me, hypnosis is the process of shifting/attenuating/amplifying ‘state’… although it is really the experienced reality that is my focus rather than the state.
I totally agree that that dissociation thing just isn’t it. If anything, ASSOCIATION is what is more important! How richly the subject associates into the experience.
I agree also that dreams are not a special thing – IMO they are our brain doing what it does all day long, shaping our experience. When we ‘dream’ the external data-feed is switched off so we can spin out more creatively. In hypnosis the external data-feed is not always switched off, but we do get to influence what data is paid attention to, and also how it is interpreted. We can utilise it and make it part of a new experience of reality. So state shifts as attention shifts.
Al the very best
James
My response:
Perfect.
It’s dissociation from one stimulus and association into another. Responsiveness is a zero sum game.
The thing is that dissociation from external experience (while maintaining awareness) IS a special state (measurable on a brain scan) sometimes. It’s called REM and hypnogogia.
And so it’s entirely possible that using suggestion and relaxation we can is some cases put someone into that measurable state. Hence they tune out unimportant external stimulus (anything but the hypnotist), and the hypnotist becomes their reality.
You (James) do it primarily by increasing association to the hypnotist. As a side effect they dissociate from external things. Awareness is a zero sum game. Jon (Chase) however goes the other way. He dissociates them from external things. Then there is the space for the hypnotist to be reality.
As REM is a special state, Jon sees this level of dissociation from external reality to also be a special state. A bit ‘lighter’ then sleep, but quite close. As Elman says.
And so realize that relaxation helps you! It dissociates them from external stuff and therefore they can associate into you the hypnotist. Thats also the idea of ‘deeper deeper’. It means ‘deeper inside and away from regular external existence’. That creates space for the hypnotist.
And so we’re all one happy family!
Joe
Hi Joe
So you’ve pulled me back in 😉
“And so realize that relaxation helps you! It dissociates them from external stuff and therefore they can associate into you the hypnotist. Thats also the idea of ‘deeper deeper’. It means ‘deeper inside and away from regular external existence’. That creates space for the hypnotist.”
I would say that of course absorption in relaxation does that, but so does absorption in any experience, so why pick relaxation unless that is the ultimate experience you want them absorbed in? Why not just go direct for the outcome experience?
And why not take them ‘deeper and deeper’ into the experience you want them to have. When someone goes into an experience fully, does it really matter what they are dissociated from? Just seems to complicate things to me.
I’m not saying that subjects don’t dissociate from stuff, I’m just wondering why you would bother to focus so much of your attention on what you don’t want them to have or notice. Attention, when focussed properly, is automatically exclusive (excluding all but what is being attended to).
But all of that said, If it helps you hypnotise at your best, then roll with it. For me, the whole dissociation thing is just not helpful.
All the very best
James
It’s simply that relaxation is an all purpose dissociating agent. Like when we go to sleep at night. Like eye closure. It’s useful like that 🙂
I would say that eye closure sure is useful (Even I use it sometimes :-)) when working with some people, because it cuts down distractions (if by ‘dissociation’ you mean ‘cutting down distractions’ then that is cool and very helpful… but somehow I think it means more than that).
But relaxation does not work the same way – it does not directly limit any sensory channels.
All that said, I guess I do something akin to relaxation if I see what I would call a ‘physiology of resistance’. i.e. the are holding themselves their way so as they can do their thoughts.
But this is just a little loosening off rather than a whole ‘deeper and deeper’ relaxation thing.
You could also use a relaxation based sequence to draw a person into the process of following your instructions and suggestions… but you can use plenty of other stuff too that is more aligned with where you ultimately want to take them.
I was reading of a study recently where they were hypnotising people on exercise bikes, and it didn’t make any difference to their responsiveness to hypnosis.
J
It seems to me that when you relax you cut down on distractions from your body. That’s because relaxing is a ‘letting go’ of the body. Forgetting it, not doing anything with it, not dealing with it in any way. Making it a non-factor in your ongoing sensory experience. And so it stops distracting.
Dissociation is when there are external stimuli and you simply don’t respond to them. You get there quicker when you block off what you can of other external stimuli.
Of course you have the other bits as well (building momentum and responsiveness), and as you mentioned, anything else can do that as well.
“That’s because relaxing is a ‘letting go’ of the body. Forgetting it, not doing anything with it, not dealing with it in any way. Making it a non-factor in your ongoing sensory experience. And so it stops distracting.”
I don’t think that is necessarily so. All people hold muscle tone patterns throughout their entire waking days pretty much, that they are unaware of – that are non-factors in their ongoing sensory experience. Ask anyone standing if they are aware of which muscle fibres are engaged in maintaining their posture.
Conversely, we can all be aware of the experience of relaxation, both general and localised.
I have to conclude that relaxation only cuts down distraction if the person has their attention on that experience. And that is true of ANYTHING they have their attention on. I really don’t think relaxation is special in this sense, and as yet you have not convinced me otherwise.
I have never found that relaxation makes any difference, beyond what I have already stated in my last comment.
What I have found is that generalised relaxation can be quite a hindrance to getting ‘automatic movement’ type phenomena (such as ‘arm levitation’).
J
Joe, I don’t know if you have IT or not. But I do know when people are hypnotise they are not anything else. 😉
Relaxation/comfort is more of an aesthetic thing. Would you rather have a hypnotic experience that’s easy and comfortable or one that’s hard and painful? It also helps prevent them from having a ‘bad trip’ so to speak, but that would only apply if you were using ‘hypnotic dreaming’ or age regression, and you still need to use ‘safe’ words even then.